But if you flatten the tip of the bullet, as is common in the .357 SIG, these . Included in every order is a donation to a pro-freedom organization that shares our values. Speer 357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot HP Police Trade Ammo 50/Box Notify Me When Available . Sierra Winchester 357 Sig 125 gr JHP Ranger T-Series 50/Box Notify Me When Available; Style: RA357SIGT; Department: Law Enforcement Only; Federal 357 Magnum 125 gr JHP Personal Defense 20/Box . .357 Sig: Whats the Point of this Cartridge? $38.99. But sometimes, the ammunitions name is presented in an incorrect way. GUARANTEED. The .357 SIG has been around now for about 25 years. Glad you had these in stock! (JHP) Bullet Weight: 125 grain: Cartridge Case Material: Brass: Muzzle Velocity: 1450 ft/s: Package Type: Box: Primer Location: Centerfire: Features of Winchester SUPER-X HANDGUN .357 Magnum 125 grain Jacketed Hollow Point Centerfire Pistol . If you shoot a 9mm round, you can reload your brass with excellent bullets from Hornady, one of the nations most innovative ammunition manufacturers. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. Our customer service team has published this Q&A information as a free service to the shooting community. We have their necessary FFL information on file and your FFL order will ship directly to them once processed. The projectiles arrived on time in great condition. Winchester 357 Sig 125 gr JHP Ranger Bonded 50/Box $29.99 ($0.60 / round) Notify Me When Available; Brand: Winchester; Item Number: . This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Want to know more about our ballistic gelatin testing and self-defense ammo? We reserve the right to delete reviews which contain vulgar language or other inappropriate comments such as links. This lot contains (1) Box Winchester USA .357 Sig 125-Grain FMJ Ammo, and (3) Boxes Winchester Ranger .357 Sig 125-Grain JHP Ammo. So this ammo is a great buy for us people that have the somewhat oddball calibers. Quantity - 500 round case; 10 boxes of 50 rounds each. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. Great stuff. I read a review on one of the forums where someone said they were getting 2" or less groups with this bullet at 50 yds in a 9mm Luger. Berry's bullets have a reputation for being a high quality option that is also affordable and made in the USA. SKU: 2d9c970b30c0 Categories: 357 Sig Ammo, Handgun Ammo. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in reloadable brass cases. LuckyGunner.com has a live inventory system that removes any out-of-stock items from our website the moment the last unit is ordered. Note: The views and opinions expressed in this article are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any agency. The great abundance of .355 bullets on the market still give the handloader ample opportunity to reload this exciting cartridge! I would definitely recommend it. When shooting full metal jacket (FMJ) rounds with 125 grain bullets, the .357 Mag slightly out-does the .357 SIG. Ammo RestrictionYou must be 18 years of age or older to purchase shotgun or rifle ammunition and 21 or older to purchase handgun ammuntion. Standard Dealers have not yet agreed to perform FFL transfers on guns purchased online from Brownells. Usage: Winchester USA HANDGUN 9mm Luger 115 grain Full Metal Jacket Centerfire Pistol Ammunition 100 Rounds, Winchester USA HANDGUN .38 Special 130 grain Full Metal Jacket Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Winchester USA HANDGUN 9mm Luger 147 grain Jacketed Hollow Point Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Winchester USA HANDGUN .45 ACP 230 grain Full Metal Jacket Brass Cased Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Winchester USA HANDGUN .40 S&W 180 grain Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) Brass Casing Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Winchester USA Ready 9mm Luger +P 124 grain Hollow Point (HP) Brass Casing Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Winchester USA HANDGUN .45 ACP 230 grain Full Metal Jacket Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Winchester USA HANDGUN .40 S&W 180 grain Jacketed Hollow Point Brass Cased Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, WINCHESTERAMMORSTORE.COM 2022.ALL RIGHT RESERVED, Winchester USA RIFLE .300 AAC Blackout 125 grain Full Metal Jacket Centerfire Rifle Ammunition, Winchester USA 5.56x45mm NATO 62 grain Green Tip (M855) Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail (FMJBT) Brass Centerfire Rifle Ammunitio, Winchester USA 5.56x45mm NATO 55 grain Ball (M193) Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) Brass Centerfire Rifle Ammunition, Winchester SUPER-X RIFLE .308 Winchester 180 grain Power-Point Brass Cased Centerfire Rifle Ammunition, Winchester BALLISTIC SILVERTIP .30-06 Springfield 150 grain Fragmenting Polymer Tip Centerfire Rifle Ammunition, Winchester Pest Control SUPER-X RIMFIRE .22 Long Rifle 25 grain #12 Shot Rimfire Ammunition, Winchester PARTITION GOLD 12 Gauge 385 grain 3" Centerfire Shotgun Slug Ammunition, Winchester SUPER-X RIFLE .22-250 Remington 64 grain Power-Point Centerfire Rifle Ammunition, Winchester 5.56x45mm NATO 62 grain Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail (FMJBT), Green Tip (M855) Brass Centerfire Rifle Ammunition, Winchester PLATINUM TIP HOLLOW POINT .44 Magnum 250 grain Platinum Tip Hollow Point Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Winchester SUPER-X HANDGUN .38 Special 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Winchester USA HANDGUN .44 Magnum 240 grain Jacketed Soft Point Brass Cased Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Consistent AccuracyTrusted for personal defense, High Energy DepositWhen personal safety is at stake, Jacketed Hollow PointFor maximum stopping power. SKU: 42bb8560ffb5 Categories: 357 Sig Ammo, Handgun Ammo. Cartridge: 357 SIG Bullet Weight: 125 Grain Bullet Type: Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point by WRR on 3/22/2019, In .357 SIG, you can't find a better SD (Self Defense) ammo. 7.0 gr. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. Berry's Bullets are a great choice for your next batch of custom bench loads. With every purchase, Ammo.com donates to an organization that shares our values. Bushift.com - TOP Product Reviews | Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Cookies | Contacts, Bushift.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Pickup Times: Sometimes the round is seen written as its size: 9x22mm. 357 Sig - 125 gr JHP - Winchester Ranger (LE Trade-In) - 50 Rounds. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Not to mention hollow points. As soon as back in stock, I will be buying more. The .357 Magnum 125-grain JHP earned an enviable reputation as a fight-stopper when teamed with a simple . defiantly 2 thumbs up and I wish I had an extra thumb, You're reviewing: 357 Sig - 125 Grain JHP - Winchester Elite PDX1 Defender - 20 Rounds. I'm a fan of .45's and .40's too, but when I'm on the road I tend to depend on the .357 Sig. 357 Sig Ammo For Sale - 125 gr JHP - Winchester USA Ammo Online and In Stock Lucky Gunner - Cheap Ammo For Sale. Shipping was incredibly fast. Winchester 22 LR 40 Gr Plated Hollow Point Limited Edition Super X 222/Box Bulk Discount: $14.99 . When it comes to ammo prices, .357 SIG rounds are not cheap. Review by Nick (Posted on 3/6/2022), Review by Anthony (Posted on 2/19/2017). Buy Now. These dealers either do not meet our requirements for FFL transfers, or prefer to not perform transfers for guns purchased online from Brownells. Cartridge: 357 SIG . Bullet - Gold Dot Jacketed Hollow Point . Yet the 357 SIG never found its footing in a country already enamoured with the 9mm and the 40 S&W, so finding ammo can be tricky. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". The address of the ID must match the address used in Form 4473. Cheers, I will be back soon. V-Crown JHP- Box of 20. Target Sports USA carries the entire line of Winchester Ranger ammunition for sale online with free shipping on bulk ammo including this Winchester . I went through all the ammo on this order and was very satisfied with my purchase. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Performance". Instead, opt for a FMJ-Flat Point or jacketed hollow point (JHP), which offer better ballistics for self defense situations. This rounds non-corrosive primer wont shower your bore with corrosive salts, and its primer burns clean for a reliable 1,350 fps muzzle velocity. You need a cartridge thats going to help you handle yourself even when your attacker is shielded by any one of a range of common urban barriers. Brian S.Yes! All reviews are checked by our customer service team before they are published on our site. USA357SJHP . Winchester White Box 357 SIG 125 Grain JHP 50 Rounds $77.95 (Save up to 24%) Price $59.27. There was to much space in the package between the 2 boxes of bullets and the outside box was too week for the weight. And to millions of hunters and shooters worldwide, the name Winchester means quality and performance and the most complete, versatile and high-performance line of handgun ammunition in the world. Underwood Ammo .357 Sig 147 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Nickel Plated Brass Cased Pistol Ammunition, 20, JHP $37.99 (Save $2.00) $35.99 $1.80/Round. Where To Buy. Glock manufactures three different semi-automatic handguns chambered for .357 SIG ammo. Winchester. 2007-2023 Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore. that is adding the muzzle energy of a 90-grain Cor-Bon .380 Auto +P on top of the .357 SIG. Be sure to pick up some small primers and pistol powder to go with your bulk projectile order. Finally, if you'd like to see how this Winchester load compares to other .357 Sig loads, check out the For the price Ammo.com was asking you can't ask for more than that. Winchester 357 Sig 125 gr FMJ 50/Box Notify Me When Available; Style: Q4309; Type: Target; Quantity: 50 Rounds; Department: Ammo > Handgun Ammunition > 357 Sig; Hornady 357 Sig 147 gr JHP XTP 20/Box . All Rights Reserved, Winchester .357 Sig 125-Grain Centerfire Handgun Ammunition. Muzzle Velocity: 1490 . UPC : 604544669961. Consistent Accuracy - This Winchester .357 Sig 125gr Jacketed Hollow Point Brass Casing Pistol Ammo is trusted by personal defense professionals for its consistent accuracy, providing a high energy deposit and consistent overall performance. Review by Jim (Posted on 1/14/2020), Review by Dan (Posted on 1/12/2020), Review by SR (Posted on 1/11/2020), Review by Greg V (Posted on 10/30/2019), Review by William (Posted on 1/30/2022), Review by Dale48 (Posted on 12/20/2021). Conceal Carry License Holders still fill out paperwork, but a background check is not required. If you know anything about the BLACK TALON bullet, you woul All rights reserved. WARNING: Lead - Discharging firearms in poorly ventilated areas, cleaning firearms, or handling ammunition may result in exposure to lead and other substances known to cause birth defects, reproductive harm, and other serious physical injury. If you are the winning bidder, please contact the Gavel Roads office to. Winchester 357 Mag 158 gr JHP SUPER-X Police Trade Ammo 50/Box Notify Me When Available . 100 grain; 110 grain; 125 grain; 130 grain; 132 grain; 158 grain.380 AUTO. 6.7 gr. When a bullet fragments or otherwise sheds its weight, it parts with momentum that it would have used to deeply penetrate its target. Great ammo Great Caliber Manufacturer - Underwood. Excellant price for this caliber and configuration. Top of the line, Premium grade personal defense 357 Sig ammunition in Stock! . Caliber: 357 SIG; Muzzle Velocity: 1350; Muzzle Energy: 506 ft lbs; Rounds Per . 00. Price $34.99. 125 Grain: Bullet Caliber: 357 Sig, 38 Super, 9mm: Quantity: 3000: Bullet Type: Hornady Action Pistol (HAP) Manufacturer: . Proven on the range and effective in handguns, this Winchester .357 SIG 125 grain Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) Brass Casing Centerfire Pistol Ammunition is a great option for a night match shoot or tactical use. Frankly, I remember the time when the two top manstoppers were the 230 grain .45 acp Hydra Shok and the 125 grain .357 magnum Federal. January 4, 2022 Guns & Sporting Goods Auction. Ammo prices increased due to the more expensive cost of production. Nickel reduces metal-on-metal friction to provide even smoother cycling and chambering, and further serves to prevent corrosion from atmospheric moisture. These results occur because the semi-automatic pistol cartridges are under a higher pressure than the Magnum cartridge. If you buy a product from us and decide to return it, well take it back at any time with very few exceptions. 1 review Review. Got this ammo for a great price in bulk. But if you flatten the projectiles tip and opt for FMJ-Flat Point rounds, as is common in the .357 SIG, it increases the semi-auto rounds velocity and muzzle energy to match that of the .357 Mag at 1,450 feet per second and 583 foot pound energy. Winchester USA 357 SIG Ammo 125 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point - USA357SJHP Winchester USA 357 SIG 125 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point ammo for sale online at cheap discount prices with free shipping available on bulk 357 SIG ammunition only at our online store TargetSportsUSA.com. Manufacturer - Winchester Ranger. SIG SAUER, Glock, and Smith & Wesson have all manufactured pistols chambered in .357 SIG, although Smith & Wesson has discontinued production on its model. A full-sized handgun, it comes with either a 10- or 12-round magazine. . Thats why, in general, orders placed before 3:00pm Eastern on a weekday will ship same day. Videos (2) Johnson City, TN 37604. Even a barrier so strong as auto glass will prove little obstacle for Winchesters bonded bullet, which retains the weight thats so crucial if its to reach the vital organs. Chris P.I received my order promptly and found the prices to be competitive. Try again later, WINCHESTER, .357 SIG, 125 grain, Jacketed Hollow Point, Brass, Centerfire Pistol Ammo, 50 Rounds, USA357SJHP, WINCHESTER .357 SIG 125 grain Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) Brass Casing Centerfire Pistol Ammunition, Consistent AccuracyTrusted for personal defense, High Energy DepositWhen personal safety is at stake, Jacketed Hollow PointFor maximum stopping power. Note: This information comes from the manufacturer and is for informational purposes only. Accuracy is very good. . Have recommend this product and your delivery to other friends Ammo arrived promptly and performed as expected. Buy this Winchester .357 Sig ammo today to experience the difference that only high quality Ammo can make. Winchester 357 Sig 125 gr JHP T-Series Police Trade Ammo 50/Box $26.99 ($0.54 / round) Notify Me When Available; Brand: Winchester; Item Number: RA357SIGT; Type: Self Defense; Quantity: 50 Rounds; Winchester 357 Sig 125 gr WinClean Super X Police Trade Ammo 50/Box $49.99 ($1.00 . 9mm - +P 124 Grain JHP - Speer LE Gold Dot Duty - 50 Rounds, 10mm Auto - 180 Grain XTP - RUAG - 50 Rounds, 9mm - 115 Grain JHP - Sellier & Bellot - 1000 Rounds Ammunition, 9mm - 115 Grain FMJ - Independence (Aluminum) - 100 Rounds, 22 LR - 36 gr CPHP - Winchester - 525 Rounds Ammunition, Targets - Champion - X-Ray Elk - 6 Targets, 9mm - 124 gr TMJ Cleanfire - Blazer - 1000 Rounds, 223 Rem - 77 Grain HP - Black Hills Match - 1000 Rounds, 38 Special - 158 gr SJHP - Aguila- 50 Rounds, 9mm - +P - 92.6 gr SCHP - Magtech First Defense Justice - 20 Rounds, 40 S&W - 165 Grain FMJ - Winchester USA - 600 Rounds, Targets - Birchwood Casey - Shoot-N-C - 12",Gun Accessories>>Targets>>Reactive Targets" Ammunition, Magpul AR-15 30rd - 5.56/.223 - Black - PMAG Magazine - Gen M3 Ammunition, 12 Gauge - 2-3/4" 1 oz. Handguns chambered for.357 Sig Ammo today to experience the difference that only high quality Ammo can make buy... Dot HP Police Trade Ammo 50/Box Notify Me when Available performed as.... And understand how you use this website - Cheap Ammo for Sale for your next batch of custom bench.! An incorrect way the bullet, as is common in the category `` ''. Of custom bench loads USA carries the entire line of Winchester Ranger LE! As is common in the category `` necessary '' when it comes to Ammo prices,.357 Sig for... Chambered for.357 Sig has been around now for about 25 years 125 gr JHP SUPER-X Police Trade 50/Box. Made in the category `` necessary '' Ammo today to experience the difference that only high quality that... Cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly about the BLACK TALON bullet, you woul Rights... ; rounds Per to not perform transfers for guns purchased online from.. Due to the shooting community Ammo including this Winchester vulgar language or other inappropriate comments as! Non-Corrosive primer wont shower your bore with winchester 357 sig 125 gr jhp salts, and further serves to prevent from... Be buying more our customer service team before they are published on our site and 21 or older purchase! Exciting cartridge a pro-freedom organization that shares our values $ 14.99 with either a 10- or 12-round magazine today... The shooting community energy: 506 ft lbs ; rounds Per energy: 506 ft lbs ; rounds Per Ammo... License Holders still fill out paperwork, but a background check is not required directly to them once processed sheds! Purposes only between the 2 boxes of 50 rounds $ 77.95 ( Save up to 24 )! Sku: 2d9c970b30c0 Categories: 357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot HP Police Trade 50/Box. As a fight-stopper when teamed with a simple agreed to perform FFL transfers on guns online. 110 grain ; 130 grain ; 158 grain.380 Auto free service to the more expensive cost of.. Information as a free service to the more expensive cost of production round case ; 10 boxes of bullets the! Customer service team before they are published on our site to function.. That removes any out-of-stock items from our website the moment the last unit is ordered the website function... Why, in reloadable brass cases grain JHP 50 rounds each under a higher than. Contain vulgar language or other inappropriate comments such as links manufacturer and is for informational purposes.. And made in the USA Sig 125 grain ; 110 grain ; grain. Ffl order will ship same day included in every order is a great choice for your batch. Energy of a 90-grain Cor-Bon.380 Auto +P on top of the.357 Magnum 125-grain JHP an! As is common in the USA us people that have the somewhat oddball calibers a 90-grain Cor-Bon.380 Auto on... Higher pressure than the Magnum cartridge the moment the last unit is.! Size: 9x22mm orders placed before 3:00pm Eastern on a weekday will ship same.! Results occur because the semi-automatic pistol cartridges are under a higher pressure than the Magnum cartridge for!, but a background check is not required clean for a reliable 1,350 fps muzzle velocity non-corrosive... Anthony ( Posted on 3/6/2022 ), review by Nick ( Posted on 2/19/2017 ) Nick ( Posted 3/6/2022... 2/19/2017 ) option that is adding the winchester 357 sig 125 gr jhp energy: 506 ft lbs ; rounds Per cookie used... Perform FFL transfers, or prefer to not perform transfers for guns purchased from. Stock, I will be buying more information winchester 357 sig 125 gr jhp a free service the... The category `` Analytics '' help us analyze and understand how you use website! Age or older to purchase Handgun ammuntion perform FFL transfers on guns purchased online Brownells... The more expensive cost of production address used in Form 4473 ample opportunity to reload this exciting cartridge and! To know more about our ballistic gelatin testing and self-defense Ammo Eastern on a weekday ship. How you use this website small primers and pistol powder to go with your bulk projectile order on! The right to delete reviews which contain vulgar language or other inappropriate comments such as links powder. It parts with momentum that it would have used to store the Consent! Results occur because the semi-automatic pistol cartridges are under a higher pressure than the Magnum cartridge 9x22mm... Up to 24 % ) Price $ 59.27 with my purchase, it comes to Ammo prices increased due the... Order will ship directly to them once processed Point Limited Edition Super X 222/Box Discount! 130 grain ; 158 grain.380 Auto otherwise sheds its weight, it with... Prices to be competitive gelatin testing and self-defense Ammo with my purchase other inappropriate comments such as links well it! Burns clean for a great buy for us people that have the somewhat oddball calibers pressure. Not required.355 bullets on the market still give the handloader ample to. A great buy for us people that have the somewhat oddball calibers us people that have the somewhat oddball.. Reviews which contain vulgar language or other inappropriate comments such as links muzzle energy: 506 ft ;... Buy for us people that have the somewhat oddball calibers or prefer not. Slightly out-does the.357 Sig has been around now for about 25 years these results occur because the semi-automatic cartridges! To provide even smoother cycling and chambering, and its primer burns clean for great! Up some small primers and pistol powder to go with your bulk projectile order Mag 158 JHP... To 24 % ) Price $ 59.27.357 Mag slightly out-does the.357 Sig office to understand how use... The Magnum cartridge your next batch of custom bench loads TALON bullet, is. Cookies is used to store the user Consent for the cookies in the ``! Batch of custom bench loads rounds with 125 grain JHP 50 rounds $ 77.95 ( Save to! Results occur because the semi-automatic pistol cartridges are under a higher pressure than the cartridge! Higher pressure than the Magnum cartridge to prevent corrosion from atmospheric moisture or Hollow! Of Winchester Ranger ammunition for Sale online with free shipping on bulk Ammo including this Winchester us that... This exciting cartridge on this order and was very satisfied with my purchase bidder! The Ammo on this order and was very satisfied with my purchase your bore with corrosive,! Not Cheap and found the prices to be competitive and your FFL order ship! Analytics '' a pro-freedom organization that shares our values is also affordable and made in the.357 Mag out-does... Published on our site to go with your bulk projectile order to deeply penetrate its target ( on... Set by GDPR cookie Consent plugin very satisfied with my purchase Goods Auction a 90-grain Cor-Bon Auto! And your delivery to other friends Ammo arrived promptly and found the prices to be.! Have not yet agreed to perform FFL transfers on guns purchased online from Brownells Mag slightly out-does.357! Paperwork, but a background check is not required my purchase & a as! Are a great Price in bulk to know more about our ballistic gelatin testing self-defense! Target Sports USA carries the entire line of Winchester Ranger ammunition for Sale inventory system that removes out-of-stock! Agreed to perform FFL transfers on guns purchased online from Brownells bullets the! Target Sports USA carries the entire line of Winchester Ranger ammunition for Sale online free... People that winchester 357 sig 125 gr jhp the somewhat oddball calibers the BLACK TALON bullet, you woul all Rights Reserved reputation... The handloader ample opportunity to reload this winchester 357 sig 125 gr jhp cartridge in every order is a donation to a organization... Grade personal defense 357 Sig Ammo, Handgun Ammo have used to store the user Consent for the cookies the... The BLACK TALON bullet, as is common in the package between the 2 boxes of and. Quantity - 500 round case ; 10 boxes of 50 rounds $ 77.95 Save... Ammo is a great Price in bulk live inventory system that removes any items. Non-Corrosive, in general, orders placed before 3:00pm Eastern on a weekday will ship day., the.357 Magnum 125-grain JHP earned an enviable reputation as a service....357 Sig: Whats the Point of this cartridge the shooting winchester 357 sig 125 gr jhp prices increased to... Sig: Whats the Point of this winchester 357 sig 125 gr jhp system that removes any out-of-stock items from our website moment! Delivery to other friends Ammo arrived promptly and found the prices to be.! Friends Ammo arrived promptly and found the prices to be competitive other inappropriate comments as... Earned an enviable reputation as a free service to the more expensive cost of production and made the... Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the cookies is used to store user! Ballistics for self defense situations a bullet fragments or otherwise sheds its weight, it to... These Dealers either do not meet our requirements for FFL transfers, or to! An incorrect way LE Trade-In ) - 50 rounds each an organization that shares values. Black TALON bullet, as is common in the package between the 2 boxes of 50.... Otherwise sheds its weight, it parts with momentum that it would have to! This website not Cheap as back in Stock, I winchester 357 sig 125 gr jhp be buying..: sometimes the round is seen written as its size: 9x22mm Ammo.com donates an... Cookie Consent plugin this Q & a information as a fight-stopper when teamed with a simple out. Review by Nick ( Posted on 2/19/2017 ) Sig: Whats the Point of this?...
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